Tony Gurr

What can I do for YOU?

In Educational Leadership, ELT and ELL, News & Updates (from the CBO), Our Schools, Our Universities, Uncategorized on 13/07/2018 at 11:35 am

The recent parliamentary and presidential elections here in canım Türkiyem left a lot of the so-called ‘white Turks’ a wee bit unhappy (to say the least). Muharrem İnce put up a brave fight as the CHP candidate…but most of knew it was always going to be a one-horse race!

Screen Shot 2018-07-13 at 11.45.16

The real surprise came, however, when Erdoğan announced his new cabinet. In the line-up, there was a face that many described as ‘totally unexpected’!

Screen Shot 2018-07-13 at 11.45.31

No…not that one…the ‘Son-in-Law’ just sent investors running for the hills and helped the dollar make a bloody great hole in my newly-painted ceiling!

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This one…

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Ziya Selçuk…a well-known Professor from Gazi University…a progressive educational thunker and founder of Maya Okulları (originally in Ankara and now in Manavgat and Diyarbakır)a teacher’s teacher!

A surprise? A surprise?

Shouldn’t every country have a Minster of Education with this type of background… pedigree…sense of humour, even?

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I guess many people thought it was unexpected because ‘Ziya Hoca’ had been the Head of the Instruction and Education Board (Talim Terbiye), a key arm of the Ministry of Education (MEB) when the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) first came to power in the early 2000s…at the time Dark Lord Hüseyin Çelik held the reigns of power.

Ziya Hoca walked away.

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Others might have thought it was a surprise that Ziya Hoca agreed to take the appointment!

The MEB has the reputation for changing its ‘leader’ more often than its underwear (5 times since 2002 and the start of AKP rule). Sadly, all these leaders also demonstrated amazingly low levels of Educational Literacy and Turkish Educational policy, some might think, was produced by this type of discussion…

Talking Ass

…and those very decisions then frequently falling foul of…

Baby U-turn

…’revisions’ that totally confused parents, students, teachers…even God herself!

This is not how Ziya Hoca does busyness and his appointment has, on the whole, been met with a lot of praise and given a lot of educators ‘hope’ (whatever you may think about Erdoğan, stupid he is not…not at all)!

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So, why am I writing this post?

Well…on a lot of the Leadership and Middle Management Training programmes I run, we talk about what ‘new leaders’ have to do in their first 90 days in office (regardless of experience, qualifications and ‘personal vision’)…

Top of the list:

  • SHUT UP!
  • ASK QUESTIONS!
  • LISTEN!

Hence, the title of this post…

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I’ve been chatting to a lot of friends on the phone since the appointment (mostly because I can’t leave the house…after a ‘fight’ with a 6cm step left me with 4 fractures in my foot, a ripped calf on the other leg, bruised ribs…and a shiriously red-faced ego! Size really doesn’t matter!!!) and talking about what Ziya Hoca could do to improve the quality of language learning, teaching and assessment across canım Türkiyem.

A few ideas are:

  • Work closely with the Council for Higher Education (YÖK) and Universities with ELT Departments to ensure teachers-in-training are given more opportunities to actually graduate with higher levels of fluency and accuracy (at least a minimum of CEFR – B2+/C1 or GSE 70-78) – via language support across all 4 years of their courses, 6-month exchange programmes with schools in the UK, US or Canada, etc.
  • Ensure every school has access to a Professional Learning Budget for its language departments and has the authority to use this budget to meet the ‘bottom-up’ needs of teachers.
  • Create training opportunities that tackle the serious issues of ‘content-driven’ or ‘activity-based’ teaching that are the product of schools’ obsessions with ‘covering the textbook’ and develop teacher ability to meet commonly-agreed learning outcomes by creating motivating and engaging learning opportunities – not simply turning pages like a burger-flipper at Macdonalds.
  • Remove the current conventional wisdom that language tests have to be dominated by ‘objective’ multiple-choice questions and prepare the groundwork for a fundamental shift towards ‘formative assessment’ in our language classrooms and the use of valid and reliable ‘communicative tests’ which prioritise the importance of speaking.
  • NEVER, everever…repeat the ‘cock-up’ that was the Fatih Project!

There are many, many more…

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If Ziya Hoca asked YOU, what would you tell HIM?

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Tony (logo new) 260316 ACG

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HERE’S the graphic on ‘trust’ that I could not add into the comments section (15/07/18):

Workplace Trust (Jacobs 2012)

 

  1. Please, Ziya Bey, influence school cultures so that native speaking teachers are not for show, for prestige or to impress parents. Have the school leaders allow the trained, experienced, professionals to do what they do best (active learning, focus on fluency and real life situations, use of authentic language and materiel) NOT preparing for endless, useless exams, which only block the growth of language skills by increasing anxiety over the “value” of a high test score.

    • Thx for this Joe!

      I was half expecting the first reply to come from Laurence – that’s usually what happened…along with some wisecrack about how my post stank! Another thing I’ll miss now he has passed away…

      I hear you! The (over)use of NSTs in the PR and Marketing material of many large chain-schools has been something that has always stuck in my crawl. The less said about the EXAMocracy the better!

      It was funny…no sooner had I posted this than news broke about Ziya Hocam’s first major decision as Minister came out – shutting down the ‘ALO 147 telephone complaints hotline’ with the words “Öğretmenlerimizin kalbine, gönlüne dokunmayan bir sistem başarılı olamaz”!

      Doing the right thing is also on ‘the list’…as is ‘securing some early wins’!

      T..

  2. He often spoke about a university entrance exam system similar to SAT where students would have several chances to take the exam. I’m most curious to see how he approached the national exams, especially the 8th grade one. That’s my litmus test for him that I’ll use to understand how far he is willing to go to make change or will his term be mostly status quo.

    • Cheers Chris!

      I’m not how sure the MEB and YöK will work together – it’s clear they need to have closer links. Just as High School needs to be seen as another phase in the career in a student’s ‘career’, the same approach needs to be taken with HS and Hazırlık / Freshman (esp. on EMPs) – after all we teach ‘students’, not ‘courses’ (or should do)!

      Yes, the exams…the exams…this will be the thing that keeps him awake at night (it would me)! What do you think? It’s always better to help others with solutions…

      Take care,

      T..

    • One thing that occurred to me Chris – with regards the EXAMS is the little matter of ‘trust’ – the less trust we have in teachers, the more comprehensive / objective / high-stakes the tests tend to be for the move into High School / University tend to be.

      So, I guess the real question might be: How can we increase the trust that the government / parents / stakeholders have in Turkey’s teachers?

      A biggie…a very big biggie that will not be ‘fixed’ overnight:

      (1) Better more relevant and professional ‘preparation’ in ELT faculties – see comments below about theory & practice.

      (2) Better climates in the schools new teachers enter – leadership, culture, fewer ‘reluctant teachers’ (I only put down ‘Teaching’ in case I couldn’t get onto a ‘real faculty), pay and conditions, opportunities to grow and develop.

      (3) Wider access to relevant PLD opportunities from the MEB and YöK – organised, structured, on-going, expert support teams, access to funding – esp. for curriculum / assessment implementation and renewal.

      (4) Compulsory training for school leaders – principals and vice-principals, of course, but also teacher leadership programmes…student leadership programmes (not just student leadership ‘showcases’ like MUN).

      (5) More collaborative and inter-disciplinary syllabus and lesson planning – and adoption of an ‘ethos of performance enhancement’ (not simply ‘content coverage’ & ‘testing’).

      The list could go on and on…but you get the idea 😉

      T..

  3. Posting this on behalf of a dear friend (aka ‘partner-in-crime’) – Hüray Atak Norans

    Even though I haven’t worked for public schools, I hear or observe teachers’ complaining about language teaching and learning across my country. It is not always accurate to say “If you are not doing anything to address the issue, you are part of the problem.”

    Having worked as the assistant of the National Coordinator for the European Language Portfolio for about 4 years, I have listened to many experiences of language teachers whose problems are usually the direct result of admininistrators with little or no knowledge of what it takes to equip classrooms that are managed by “professional” language teachers.

    The moment I saw your post on FB, my mind started to spin not knowing where to start and how to express my thoughts without sounding like a whiner. And I was a bit nervous as well because I already knew that the content of my questions would reflect my experience as teacher. I mean my mind and, I would also say, my soul has told me that I should be careful about what I ask him. Clever questions comes from clever minds trying to get to the heart of the matter.

    In the end, I decided to be as natural as I can be when asking the crucial questions.

    And here they are..

    1. Private schools in Turkey have been competing against each other so as to provide parents and learners with the curriculum and school programs which are claimed to be designed in cooperation with international and educational organizations and foundations. This means that many private schools in my country are to be considered international this way or the other. Yet, this claim by some certain schools can be rather deceptive, thus misinforming parents about language teaching process. I am quite sure everyone reading this post can read between my lines. If schools are private, and if it is the nature of competition, it is understandable that they should be allowed to manage their schools while abiding with the regulations of the Ministry of Education. So, here is my question. How will the Ministry of Education monitor and regulate the process in order to protect parents from being misled and manipulated by private school owners?

    2. Even language schools (‘dersane’), design their curriculum and their modules of teaching language according to the framework of CEFR; yet, there is a huge difference among schools and “dersanes” about what to expect from learners at certain levels of proficiency, not to mention what approach and method to use and to plan ahead. My observation is that after all those efforts put into promoting the usage of European Language Portfolio across Turkey, literally across Turkey, there is still a very blurred and incoherent understanding of proficiency levels among institutions, and of course, learners. We all know that we should assess what we teach, as such, I believe that teachers and school owners or managers / supervisors should be knowledgeable about and skilled at explaining these proficiency levels to others, as well as leading others to answer the “what”, “how” and “why” of language programme design. What steps need to be planned to standardize proficiency levels across institutions and their teachers so we can finally move onto more critical matters – formative vs summative?

    3. No need to write any introductory statements to the issue of cooperation between faculty of education and teachers at schools. I would like to know if there are any projects planned to bring faculty staff and teachers together so that they can nourish each other and tackle real problems with cutting-edge solutions.

    4. I really wonder what steps will be taken to train teachers on the field after graduation and having been assigned to a public school anywhere in Turkey. Ziya Hoca is a master of self organized learning so its important to know he plans about how to disseminate these ideas – seminars about learners’ and teachers’ profiles or styles, applying MIs in a best practice and appropriate way, etc.

    5. I am not gonna talk about salaries! But ELT teachers need more materials to promote peripheral learning. Any plans to readjust the classroom environment to enable teachers to enjoy the setting which results from activity based teaching and learning?

    6. Here is one more important question. Many language teachers are ignored by their supervisors / administrators. Will these people (esp. in public schools) get involved in any kind of seminars to get them to recognize the needs of language teachers in schools?

    Hüray Atak Norans

    • Hocam!

      Where do I start?

      1. Salary – there is NOTHING wrong with teachers complaining about their salaries. Many of us have families…others want to have families…and be able to put food on the table without having to do 20 private lessons a week (at rates a ‘native speaker’ would not even get out of bed for)! I’ve always found that money is NOT really a motivator for many teachers…BUT it is a huge DEmotivator when we do not get enough (esp. when you have kids and your apartment presents you with a ‘surprise’ bill for 2,500TL…to fix the roof of the building just before your kid starts a new school year! If a teacher cannot look after her family and save a wee bit for emergencies (or a half-decent holiday in Summer), we have a huge problem. Nuff said…

      2. Leadership in our schools – I have many a discussion with friends and colleagues about this one. We often discuss the biggest problem in our schools today – many say ‘communication’, a few raise the issue of the ‘Power-Distance Index’ (see my recent FB post) in both our schools and homes, others mention ‘funding and budgets’!

      They are all right!

      However, in my 33 years in education I have found that a successful school needs 4 things:

      (a) GREAT Leadership
      (b) GREAT Curriculum
      (c) GREAT Assessment
      (d) GREAT Teachers

      Everything else is a ‘bonus’!

      While the last of these (d), is by far the MOST important – we fall short in all FOUR. However, the first (a) can make a huge difference when things are not ‘perfect’…motivating (d) to make the best of (b) and (c)…even under challenging conditions!

      Just as many teachers (still) teach the way they were taught, many of our school leaders STILL manage the way they were (not) managed and led effectively!!! ‘Power-Distance’ plays a huge factor, a focus on ‘exams’ and ‘grades’ rather than ‘learning’ is another…but the biggest hurdle is that of ‘professional learning’. The majority of our so-called LEADers just cannot be seen NOT to know everything (despite the fact that they have NEVER had any training in management or leadership – very different to becoming a ‘subject specialist’ or ‘reseacher’).

      The answer? Just as ‘teachers have to become students of their teaching’ to grow and improve….leaders have to become ‘students of their leadership and management’…and get the support they need, when they need it!

      Am I on the right track, hocam?

      T..

  4. One thing we have not mentioned so far is FINLAND – we all know why!

    No single thing can explain Finland’s outstanding educational performance. However, most analysts observe that excellent teachers play a critical role! Among the successful practices that we can take from Finland are:

    (1)The development of rigorous, research-based teacher education programs that prepare teachers in content, pedagogy, and educational theory, as well as the capacity to do their own research, and that include field work mentored by expert veterans;

    (2) Significant financial support for teacher education, professional development, reasonable
    and equitable salaries, and supportive working conditions;

    (3) The creation of a respected profession in which teachers have considerable authority
    and autonomy, including responsibility for curriculum design and student assessment, which engages them in the ongoing analysis and refinement of practice.

    There is also the tiny little matter of Teaching Practice in Teacher Training Schools or Field Schools…in every single year of Finland’s Teacher Education Programmes – staffed by ‘expert practitioners’ (not just academics). Yani, a lot more ‘practice’ than ‘theory’ – the exact opposite of what we have in canım Türkiyem!

    T..

  5. Another area…and one that caused a bit of a ‘fuss’ when I talked about it on FB and the blog a few weeks back…is ‘corruption in Education’!

    I came across a ‘story’ on Quora this morning (from Anand Nyamdavaa in Ulaanbaatar):

    I heard a joke recently about corruption:

    A company executive received a letter from one of the inspection agencies alleging that his mining company is not following the mining regulations. To settle the problem he sends his lawyer. The lawyer drives to the countryside and meets with the inspector. The inspector who lives in a small town close to the mining site cites all the problems with the mine. So the lawyer blatantly asks how much she wants. The inspector says she wants 1000$.

    The lawyer calls his boss and tells him that the inspector wants 1500$. The boss promptly transfers the amount to his account. The lawyer takes out 1000$ from his account and hands it over to the inspector. While giving the money he says: “You know, I got in trouble because of you, I got a lot of scolding. I might even get fired because of you.” The inspector without saying anything gives 200$ back as a tip.

    Now, who is more corrupt in this case?

    Is it the company boss, who doesn’t want to conform to costly upgrades prefers giving hush money?

    Or is it the Government Inspector who writes frivolous citations and knows that the company executive would rather pay than be involved with government bureaucracy?

    Or is it the lawyer who facilitated the deal and earned from both sides at the end?

    Or is it you, the reader, laughing at the joke and thinking it is funny?

    I think one of the worst things about corruption is when everybody finds it acceptable. They don’t find it strange or wrong that giving small amounts of money to grease the wheels is not ok. They might be thinking that it is an acceptable way of doing business.

    So, to answer your question:

    How do you fix a corrupt country?

    You have to make it unacceptable, not cool to participate in corruption yourself first. When the majority of people start feeling this way, things will change…

  6. Another response re-posted from LinkedIn:

    Nick Manthei, Teacher Trainer

    Great post. Here are my ideas:

    Start English learning in public schools in middle school, not before. Teaching English poorly for 2 hours a week at a young age does nothing for nobody. If the goal is to have students be able to communicate in English instead of becoming native-like, pouring resources into fewer grades would be more efficient then spreading the money throughout K-12.

    Get rid of forcing teachers to teach far from home their first years on the job. I have met way too many unmotivated public school teachers that are simply counting the days until they can teach where they wish.

    Encourage schools to try new ideas such as project-based, task-based, and place-based curricula and then showcase these teachers and schools who have worked hard doing so.

    Encourage more public-private partnerships in schools. A great example is IAOSB Nedim Uysal Meslek ve Teknik Lisesi in Izmir.

    Nick

    • Nick,

      I got to thinking about one of the suggestions you made:

      “Get rid of forcing teachers to teach far from home their first years on the job. I have met way too many unmotivated public school teachers that are simply counting the days until they can teach where they wish.”

      In case you are not familiar with the ‘Compulsory Placement and Service’ arrangements (used by the MEB for new teachers) that Nick is talking about – in a nutshell (and forgetting all the red tape and hoops young teachers have to jump thru to become a teacher), teachers are recruited by the MEB either as ‘contract teachers’ or ‘full-time’ teachers (don’t ask me to go into the difference…I’ll be here forever) and both types of teacher are required to do some form of mandatory service in a school nominated by the Ministry. For full-time teachers, this period of service is not less than 3 years, while for those appointed as contract-based teachers have to serve at least 6 years in their appointed schools (and cannot ask for ‘mobility’…yani, no parole for good behaviour)!

      This having been said I have met some teachers who have thoroughly enjoyed their nominated schools and cities but the majority (esp. when asked to relocate from the West to the East of the country), as Nick noted simply end up counting the days…

      Obviously, the MEB is not just doing this to be ‘mean’. They have to address many of the very serious challenges that the more provincial regions have to deal with when providing basic education to the children of these cities, towns and villages. The MEB has serious issues with its budget allocation and this is compounded by the socio-cultural and economic challenges that the more provincial regions face. This frequently means that many of these regions face severe difficulties retaining their experienced teachers or keeping teaching talent in the areas they are needed the most.

      Many countries around the globe face similar challenges – getting good teachers into remote or geographically challenged locations – the UK and Australia are two of them and they often offer incentives to convince teachers to take jobs in these areas. Incentives like housing subsidies, ‘isolation allowances’, holiday benefits packages and relocation allowances – all things Turkish teachers have to do without.

      Now, you might say Turkey just does not have the cash to follow-up on programmes like these – I disagree I think it lacks the will to place students and teachers at the heart of its decision-making. Juggling a national budget by just 0.01% is not that hard!

      But, let’s say you are right…we just cannot find a way to spend less on our military or ‘hospitality budgets’! Maybe we want to keep a heavy-handed approach to teacher allocation and mobility…then make it fair! Japan’s ‘tenkin’ system is one option (Korea uses a very similar system, too) – New teachers are posted to a new school after 4 years, and after that, teachers are rotated to a new school every 6 years. This all makes for very rich professional experiences in a variety of contexts, balances teaching ‘quality’ and pumps new blood into the teams in each school. Teachers are compensated with fair subsidies and given a formal induction and orientation to the area, in addition to mentoring and new opportunities for professional learning and development – offered to a guaranteed, recognised and national standard (not just reliant on the individual schools to which teachers are posted).

      The ‘tenkin’ approach, as applied to education, also posts teachers who need to ‘improve’ to successful schools with strong reputations for achievement and student success – this is a critical benefit for educators. Just moving around good teachers isn’t enough to make a significant impact on the system because the same amount of talent is just distributed in a different way… to build and ensure a long-lasting impact on the teaching quality across the country you need to ensure that there are systems in place that support teachers to learn from one another (in varied and multiple ways).

      As I mentioned earlier, Korea uses a very similar approach…with a ‘twist’. This twist that makes experiences in the more ‘disadvantaged’ regions and towns more attractive and sought-after. They simply ensure that the experience of working in more isolated and challenging areas and schools carries a lot more weight when it comes to applications for specialist roles/duties or general promotion than working in affluent areas. Genius!

      So – ‘get rid of mandatory placements for teachers’? It is doable if we have the will…but there are ways – and there are ‘ways’!

      T..

  7. Here’s a list of suggestions posted as replies to my FB posts related to the blog post (and a couple PM’ed to me). They all answer the key focus question below:

    What type of Professional Learning and Development (PLD) opportunities could really help language teachers in canım Türkiye?

    Training in using the CEFR (and now GSE) so we can develop a ‘real’ syllabus – not use the contents page of a textbook.

    PD on mapping learning objectives (outcomes) to the textbooks teachers are required to use. Also, using those textbooks more creatively.

    Workshops on formative assessment, writing criteria for AfL, standardising classroom use of criteria between teachers.

    Writing reliable quizzes and tests – and using these with no grading to develop a culture of learning in the classroom.

    Classroom management, classroom management and classroom management!
    PD and workshops on developing engaging LL tasks, games and activities.

    What is student motivation? Can teachers motivate students? How to keep ourselves motivated?

    Professional Development on using PBL in the language classroom and how to balance inquiry-based learning with more ‘traditional teaching’ (we still need to do it)!

    More sessions on technology and digital literacy – practical, hands-on ideas using new tools.

    Collaboration – everyone is talking about the 4Cs for students but we need to learn to collaborate on materials, lesson planning, sharing.

    How to teach grammar in different ways – creatively with fun and games.

    PD on classroom instructions and using English in the classroom.

    These are NOT in any order and were usually mentioned by one or two teachers but they give us an idea that not everything teachers want is about ‘rocket science’.

    T..

  8. Three ‘more serious’ THUNKS that have been added to FB or LinkedIn postings (well, one was a PM!)…along with a few of my own reflections on the same issues:

    (1) YÖK has to ‘go’!

    Don’t beat around the bush…tell us what you really think! OK, lots of people know that the tyrannical hold YÖK has over our universities has to be ‘relaxed’. Many of those same people know that these universities have a huge number of major problems – from funding issues to the quality of research and teaching…not to mention the quality of PhDs we are creating, the issues of relevance, fairness and intellectual honesty within our ivory towers and the matter of standards (in general).

    These issues cannot be dealt with by just simply getting rid of YÖK – we need some type of leadership structure and decision-making body to help coordinate all the quality enhancement initiatives we need (a bloody big budget, too). The question is: Is YÖK, as it currently does busyness, the right body to do this? I’m guessing you all have an opinion or 7 on that one…

    (2) We have to sort out this whole B1, B1+, B2 ‘mess’ – which level does a student ‘need’ to survive on an English-medium university programme!

    This is a biggie! We have a whole range of schools telling us different things about what students need to study in English…many of these differences come down to a lack of ‘CEFR Literacy’ (having a one-night stand with a sexy one-pager on the internet just ain’t the same as being married for 5-6 years)!

    Firstly, no student will ever reach a B2 level in the 8-9 months they are given at a typical hazırlık school! Nuff said… Second, no student can manage to survive on a serious English-medium freshman programme with an IELTS score of 5.0…5.5…they will even struggle with a 6.0 (unless they are really, really bright and have the work ethic of a guilt-ridden Protestant on steroids)!

    We also have to remember that when a hazırlık school (even the best of them) say they require a CEFR B2 on their own proficiency test (often this is an arbitrary score of 60-65%), what they are really talking about is a ‘Turkish B2’ (a lot closer to a B1+)! ‘Telling the truth is a revolutionary act’ – Orwell said this and I know how much you all love him…

    YÖK has done little to sort this out – language proficiency has never been one of their strengths…mostly because they just ain’t got a clue about language learning…and because it is simply ‘below’ them to even consider something as ‘easy’ as learning English!

    So, YES…this one really has to be sorted out. BUT, again, is YÖK the best educational body to tackle this thorny issue…me thunks NOT!

    (3) Why do we still require teachers in university hazırlık to take YDS (and now the newer YÖKDİL)? Many teachers pass with scores of 98-100 but cannot put a sentence together in conversation…and they get the jobs because schools still have to hire based on these scores (rather than a serious / rigorous ‘interview’ about teaching, language learning, language assessment, beliefs and values or even a ‘demo-lesson’…on paper)!

    Ahhhh, the EXAMocracy rears its ugly head in the arena of language learning and testing! One thing we really have to ask is ‘How good is a test that allows someone who cannot speak the language that is being tested to get a ‘perfect’ score? Those lovely chaps at Ankara and Anadolu Universities will tell us ‘we’re working on it’! – but come on…that really was an afterthought!

    Basically, YÖKDİL / YDS are basically the same as the older KPDS and ÜDS – and reflect our obsession with producing ‘totally objective’ (as if that is ever possible with language) test items driven by one’s knowledge of grammar (and vocabulary that most native speakers have never used)!

    This having been said YÖK had had the good sense to keep the equivalencies on PTE Academic, TOEFL iBT, CPA and CAE…we just need to get IELTS back in there (it is, after all, one of the best indicators of future performance on an English-medium, HEd programme of study). I just get worried when I look at the YDS / YÖKDİL equivalencies for these international benchmarks…someone shiriously had too much ayran the day those were worked out!

    As for allocating jobs on the basis of results from a multiple-choice test, I am reminded of a quote I saw a while back (from Simon Sinek) – “If you hire people just because they can do a job, they’ll work for money. But if you hire people who believe what you believe, they’ll work for you with blood, sweat and tears”.

    Isn’t it about time we started hiring teachers for what they believe (as well as what they should know)…the question is, of course, “…what do the MEB and YÖK believe”?

    More laters…

    T..

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